Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? Trent models that approach each. This is not the rule. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. Some people dont die at all. So Steve even admits that Jesus is an exception to the claims about the universality of sin. Yep. Do it right now. Okay. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? Im running out of time. He had mentioned about, in the book of Jude, about Moses and the devil contending for the body, or Michael contending with a body of Moses with Michael the archangel. Here we go. And if you look into church history, these dogmas were not all agreed upon. So I think that was an excellent opening statement. He had cancer and heart disease. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. Can you name one verse where either God or Jesus is described that way in the New Testament? Not just saying that because theyre paying me, although that definitely helps. Check out our newest Lake Effect team. Okay. Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. And hes not. One, ones natural sister, such as a sister of the same parents or a half sister or, two, a believing sister, such as a Christian sister. More on that in a moment. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. Greg is one of the leading apologists of our day and has had a huge impact on my personal and professional life. An interview with Steve Baughman. So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. But hell say we can believe in that exception because of whats come from divine revelation in sacred Scripture. Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. Alright? They can live out the gospel teaching in their unique holy family. Now Steve mentioned and many other Protestants allude to Matthew 1:24-25, which says When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him. In Super Bowl XXVIII, Christie set a Super Bowl record by kicking a 54-yard field goal. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. So in Mark chapter one, verse 19, it says, James is the son of Zebedee, and it uses the Greek definite article. You mean the son of John? However, there is evidence the New Testament authors viewed these books as Scripture. Because there would be no reason to rescue her from death because a purpose of a bodily assumption into heaven is so an individual would not see death. steve.christie@phmloans.com. We are going to move into a time 30 minutes of Q&A. If you like todays episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get access to member only content. From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo. Apologist, any of the Christian writers, primarily in the 2nd century, who attempted to provide a defense of Christianity and criticisms of paganism and other aspects of Greco-Roman culture. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? Though I will say, as were going through them, I feel like Steves case is sort of like that tree in front of my house is a bush Im always trying to get just right, but they end up clipping so many parts off of it, its just a bunch of empty branches sitting there. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. My point though was to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. The Greek grammarian Bill Mounce, who writes a whole textbook on Ancient Greek, says that adelphi means, sister, near kinswoman, or female relative. When it comes to [Greek 00:39:49], I already showed that both in the Septuagint and also in contemporary literature, it does not require a reversal of condition, so it can be used here in Matthew 1:25 in this way. I thought about writing a book on-. Apologetics for the Masses #365 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part II. He has authored over 170+ books.Andrews is the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (UASV). Its not necessarily saying every single father affirms something, since, as Steve said, you wont necessarily get them all affirming, [inaudible 01:36:48] they dont write on everything. So it must be used in some other way. This is an example called eisegesis of Scripture. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. So I dont believe that the church in the biblical sense has been an era all that time. He says, Jesus words would have sounded exactly the same if the narrative of Zechariahs death had occurred in the book of Kings or in the Psalms. And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. And again, as a Roman Catholic, I would expect them to because their issue is not about Mary. And the same is true for us, that Mary was free from sin, but she still had an earthy body. All right, Steve, whenever you begin, I Actually, just give me one second. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. I say this by way of concession, not of command. So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. All right. All serious students of God's Word need to know these Christian apologists below. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. And Trent and I actually talked a little bit about this, about essentials versus non-essentials of the faith. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. They would be sons from another marriage. As Trent Horn stated in his debate against Dr. James White, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. Thats Sola Scriptura, folks, and I agree with him as did the Apostle Paul and the first century Roman Church. Well, it is an argument that actually I hear from a lot of contemporary Catholic apologists. You can finish your thought, if you want real quick, Steve. I think youve already said to some degree youre okay referring to Mary as the mother of God. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? Both conditions were initially treatable, but he declined treatment. Their issue is not about Mary. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. Morgan Stanley, +4 more. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. I would say that this is a really important question and one for us to look at, that for Protestants and Catholics to have dialogue with one another and to get closer to the truth, I think its huge to be able to move from And what this debate is about, is about do these beliefs contradict Scripture? So I think that is highly significant theres something very, very special about Mary in the way that its used along with the words definition. In 2001, Butler signed Christie on November 28, to replace Wade Richey who was demoted after struggling on field goals. And weve seen that time and time again, and so Im going to address the other examples that hes just raised. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. Mary always leads us to her son. So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. I dont know how you would feel. In week 7 vs. the San Diego Chargers, Christie kicked a 29-yard field goal with just :11 seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Its also been mirrored on my channel, you can go and check that out. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? But the problem with this argument is that it says in Luke 2:22-24, that its offered for their purification. We welcome all people, Christian, atheist, agnostics, and other worldly religions to our show. Well, the Septuagint was a Greek translation that was finished around 134 BC. She would have to have a heavenly body. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. We have to remember that. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. Well, right. But here Strongs says brother but that could also mean half brother, right? So lets apply these standards to the remaining dogmas. For example, it may be a reference to the minor prophet Zechariah (who was killed in the temple according to the Targum on Lamentations) as opposed to the Zechariah in Chronicles. For example, in Hebrews 9:27, it says that it is appointed for men to die once and then face judgment and this is true for basically every single human being whoever lived, except for some exceptions like Lazarus and people that Jesus raised from the dead who died twice. I believe hes referring to part of a declaration in [inaudible 01:35:47], the declaration about the immaculate conception made by the Pope in 1854, saying that the fathers had always believed this about Mary being immaculately conceived. So do it. Probably not like any other piece of wood. Well, it uses the Greek word for brother. None of the authors of the deuterocanonical books refer to a delineated list of writings (Hebrew, Ketuvim) within a closed Hebrew canon that did not include their own works. Well, there we go and right on time. So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. Sorry, let me go back a little bit here with this. What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. Thank you very much, Trent. Steve, where can people learn more about you and the good stuff youve done? Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? Submit to my authority. And in fact, in the Old Testament, only begotten and firstborn are used interchangeably. If so, if it was an eyewitness account, why hasnt the Catholic church dogmatically declared whether or not she died first? And I showed counter examples to that in each of those cases. The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. Lets see how much we can get through. Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. Okay. Thats not true. Okay. So as far as I know, I dont know offhand but that doesnt mean that its not being used. Theres a lot of people in scripture including Joseph that doesnt say anything that she gave birth to anybody and others that he didnt give birth to older step siblings of Jesus, so thats an argument from silence. Okay. And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. His kicking shoe from that game is displayed in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton. Okay. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good to hear from you again. Sure. So to everybody whos watching, please stick around. Okay. [These verses] cannot figure as crown witnesses for the view that the Old Testament canon in Jesus days was fixed and closed (The Blood from Abel to Zachariah). And I showed in my arguments that his claim that adelphei can only mean uterine sister of the same mother, or figurative, are simply not held up. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. 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