We may inquire, therefore, how the official guardians of the Faith viewed ordinary and natural dreams. What can we make of this situation? Those are some of the satisfactory reasons. Clytemnestras dream in the Agamemnon of schylus). Geesh. Whatever the force of certain arguments of a biological and philosophical nature, which have sometimes been used by theologians, in fact both the Magisterium of the Churchin the course of a constant tradition-- and the moral sense of the faithful have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act. WebHi Fathers, I have a question. But all we can say here is that the Bible doesnt say. Christian values might be called "feminine" (patience, forbearance, gentleness), but the purveyors of those values are expected to carry on often intense work in a solitary way with minimal support. How many men have confessed lapses over and over again, only to find themselves trapped in behavior they barely understand? According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Catholic ecclesiology professes the Catholic Church to be the sole Church of Christ ? The words just quoted, however, do not necessarily imply such a meaning, but may as well be interpreted of unsought prophetic dreams. Paul Midden, PhD, is the author of Absolution and the retired founding CEO of the St. Louis Consultation Center, a treatment center committed to providing psychological and spiritual care for clergy and vowed men and women. of Asshurbanipal). Are wet dreams normal at 14? This allowed Father D. to develop a more realistic approach to whatever intimacy needs he had while remaining within the bounds of a celibate priesthood if he so chose. For Catholic priests, love plays a major professional role. The last I checked, its not allowed among Catholic priests. An interesting example of magical formulae used for this purpose is contained in a Gnostic papyrus of relatively late date preserved in the Leyden Museum; it is entitled Agathocles Recipe for sending a dream, and may be read in Wiedemanns Religion der alten .gypter (p. 144). Over the past 30 years, the number of priests has been going down dramatically. CCC 1448. The divine intervention in mans dreams is an exceptional occurrence; dreaming, on the contrary, is a most common fact. Would abandoning celibacy for diocesan priests help? These incantations had to be recited according to fixed cantillations, and the soothsayers art consisted in knowing them thoroughly, copying them-faithfully, and applying them properly. Residences of this type can have a variety of names, such as manse, parsonage, rectory or vicarage. Is masturbation considered a sin among celibate priests? And it is precisely this private aspect that makes a priest vulnerable to lapsing into a relationship. Maybe some other kind Doper can help? Moreover, its meaning was not always clear and might be shrouded in symbols, or, if conveyed through oral communication, wrapped up in figures of speech. Welcome to Saint Anthonys Catholic Church. Their role as a monk (or nun) doesnt change this at all. which allows practitioners to follow more closely the example of Christ, who was chaste. Description. They are human beings and the process of a wet dream takes place in exactly the same way. The passage youre thinking of is Genesis 38:9. These benefits are often provided by the church or parish to support the spiritual development of their community. Yes, you are right on the part that they are humans. that would cause such dreams (looking at immodest pictures, or Now dreaming, as a natural psycho-physiological phenomenon, has undoubtedly its laws, which, however obscure they may be to man, are established by God, and obey His bidding. Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics. The Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches, in general, rule out ordination of married men to the episcopate, and marriage after priestly ordination. Not the theoretical, theological kind of love discussed in training, but the actual, sensuous, immediate, and non-intellectualized power trip of falling for someone. Their role as a monk (or nun) doesn't change this at all. That promise is eternal (Once a priest, always a priest Canon 290). Would love to hear from priests who masturbate, or have wet dreams either because they don't, or when they were younger. On How could I shut it out completely? Currently, the Vatican allows married men to become priests in Eastern rite churches. In the Catholic Church, a parish priest (also known as a pastor) is a priest appointed by the bishop to represent him to the local parish, which is a collection of neighborhoods in one small region of a county within a given state. According to van Driel they even tied metal crucifixes to their genitals before going to bed to combat these temptations. Then the whole nocturnal erections thing got a bit out of hand, as van Driel describes. The show doesn't usually have that sort of "provocative" material, and to be honest, I was surprised they even tried to incorporate into the show. Diocesan priests take no vow of poverty and are expected to support themselves when they retire. Another reason is that when a priest enters into service to God, the church becomes his highest calling. Similarly one may ask, does monk have wet dream? In the normal (i.e., noncelibate) world, this is usually a happy series of events. Sometimes these evidences are manifested to the dreamer, at other times to the interpreter, if one be necessary; but they will never fail. Personally, if masturbation is a sin, Ill be headed to hell via the express route. The Catholic argument is therefore that, It is widely accepted that loneliness is part of the human condition. Having Wet Dreams Is Not A Sin- Catholic Priest Advises Christians - Gistlover. Is there love involved? Generally priests already have access to mental health resources, such as psychotherapy; they also have less formal priest support groups to which they can turn for help. the While some efforts have been made in this direction, there is a longstanding tendency in the Catholic tradition to value sexual abstinence over sexual relationships, committed or otherwise. Masturbation particularly constitutes a very serious disorder that is illicit in itself and cannot be morally justified, although the immaturity of adolescence (which can sometimes persist after that age), psychological imbalance or habit can influence behaviour, diminishing the deliberate character of the act and bringing about a situation whereby subjectively there may not always be serious fault.129 Therefore, adolescents should be helped to overcome manifestations of this disorder, which often express the inner conflicts of their age and, in many cases, a selfish vision of sexuality. This legend was an Liturgical vestments are owned by the church. It is not the case, however, that this "alternative" is without complications. May God have mercy on your poor soul. Id shake your hand on it but you know. Most of the time I don't remember the dream, but last night, in the dream I began to watch pornography and masturbate. So the behavior being punished in this passage was not masturbation, it was coitus interruptus. So, does that mean, the priest keeps a tally of the penances or priests in general are called to do penance as a normal part of their duties Side by side with this religious view of dreams, which regarded them as the expression of the will of the god, there existed the superstitious view, according to which all dreams were considered as omens. this page, we've collected the most accurate and complete information to ensure that you have all of Hmmm, well Id have to say it is a sin. Ok where to put thiswhere to put thisMods do what you will with it. I am a psychologist, and I have spent much of the past three decades dealing with those kinds of problems. He is ordained as a priest to service to the People of God. Support our mission, and make a gift today. Made quite an impression at the time. The Catholic Church teaches that it is a grave sin to deliberately separate sexuality from procreation, because the latter is its most essential purpose. As to ordinary dreams, they readily grant that, because the imaginative faculties of man acquire sometimes a keenness which they do not possess otherwise, it is possible in such cases to conjecture with a certain degree of probability some future events; but in all other cases, by far the most common, it is useless and illogical to attempt any interpretation. Is Cremation Allowed? Although priests earn a modest salary, much of their income is earned through housing allowances, stipends, bonuses and other benefits. Of this belief many traces may be found in classical literature. Sign in or Register to join the conversations! Starting from the Platonic anthropological trichotomy, and from certain psychological hypotheses of Plato and Plotinus, he attributed to the imagination a manifestly exaggerated rle. WebPriests have a vow of chastity and the "options" that you have stated are prohibited under that vow, except maybe for the last one, which is unintentional. By "integrity" I mean simply being the person you claim to be. My suggestion is that you have to rephrase the question or the title of the thread. C of E clergy get their council tax paid for them and, the biggest perk of all, free accommodation, usually a four-bedroom house. So long as he is functioning in the role, he learns more or less how to behave. Wet dreams/nightfall takes care of the excess sperm. Some scholars infer from the words of Saul (I K., xxviii, 15): God is departed from me, and would not hear me, neither by the hand of prophets, nor by dreams, that the practice of deliberately seeking supernatural dreams was not unknown in Israel. Group therapy is especially helpful in situations such as these. Moaning? sexually excited during sleep to the point of a nocturnal emission. Whether you are a devout Catholic or just starting to explore your faith, these study guides, prayers, history, and personal accounts can help illuminate your journey. Do Catholic priests remain celibate? Dreams follow many cares, says Ecclesiastes (v, 2); and Ben Sirach wisely adds that dreams have deceived many, and they have failed that put their trust in them (Ecclus., xxxiv, 7). I went to a Catholic high school, had a Jesuit instructor. Moderators, take notice. Thankfully, we are not bound by these regulations. While it is fashionable these days in mental health circles to conceive of anxiety as a free-floating condition, it is often related to such profound violations of personal integrity. To be a priest is to be a leader esteemed and loved by Catholics everywhere. The analogy of the foregoing reasons with those brought forward by theologians to prove the possibility of revelation is readily perceived. How Pope Francis brought me back to the Catholic Church. Will you support Voxs explanatory journalism? Our dreams may likewise be the effects of a twofold external cause. Yes. Therefore NOT sinful unless encouraged. Still, in diagnosing behavior disorders Ill take my DSM-IV over my Catechism. After all, a priest's parishioners mostly have families to which they return, primary attachments in the context of which they can bitch and moan and feel generally safe in so doing. I m not trying to make light of anyones religion here either, as I have stated before I am a church going Episcopalianbut our priests can get married! The teaching of the Stoics was along the same lines. In fact, I know some. It is not a sin. WebOur dreams may likewise be the effects of a twofold external cause. do my gums bleed when i sleep What age should a child sleep in their own bed Do catholic priests have wet dreams Why do you dream about someone from your past But I figured that before I go into Great Debates with this Id better have some facts. WebA priest who falls in love chooses not to violate his conscience. Curiously, not much attention is paid to handling love and physical attraction in the long years of priests' training. The general consensus seems to be that this make you unclean, but its not a sin. According to the Catholic Churchs Code of Canon Law celibacy is a ?special gift of God? See? This is sad in any relationship, but it can be tragic for a priest, whose life, values, and meaning have been swept away in a torrent of passion that he had perhaps unknowingly forsworn and the dynamics of which he barely understands. So, what do you think? For some men, when the heady romance begins to fade they may abandon a relationship; just as often, however, they try to keep juggling. As though I'd done I feel like I committed a mortal sin because all three of the conditions were met, but they were met in a dream. 95, a. They live in a world unfamiliar to most of us, a world in which physical attractions and responses are not sought after and celebrated but instead are forbidden. But mostly it's a matter of juggling two incompatible things. Inscr., vol. WebWhat Are Wet Dreams? To learn more or opt-out, read our Cookie Policy. The body is self-regulating in many regards. Part 5. A priest. But not all priests have the same lifestyle. WebThe permission to confess to a compromise or bad priest requires use of the Catholic Churchs correct, valid form of absolution. Sometimes conflicts over sexual attraction or orientation, childlike shame over any sexual impulse, even limited ability to relate to people outside a structured role. If the dreams were an intended and desired consequence of viewing the material (say that someone did not wish to masturbate directly and thought this would be a way to avoid the sinfulness connected with it), then the person would be morally responsible for that intended and desired consequence. WebListen. consent of the will. WebDid mlk regret i have a dream speech Did my dog know he was being put to sleep Did patches die dream's cat Did penny sleep with raj Did pharaoh sleep with sarai Did psych Do catholic priests have wet dreams Do cats breathe fast when sleeping Do cats die in Prior to going to sleep (maybe about an hour before), I was watching a television show with a very brief "romantic scene"; part of the woman's breast was visible, and the man and woman were kissing but the scene only lasted for a few seconds, and the show changed to another storyline. Isnt this a place designed so that you can just let those questions hang out there? Some guys may feel embarrassed or even guilty about having wet dreams. Please consider making a one-time contribution to Vox today. You may wonder, do priests break celibacy? That God may enter into communication with man through dreams is asserted in Num., xii, 6, and still more explicitly in Job, xxxiii, 14 sqq. Heres the information about do catholic priests have wet dreams weve already filtered for you: https://www.pinoyexchange.com/discussion/370822/, If you find that the nocturnal emission /, https://forums.avemariaradio.net/viewtopic.php?t=108943, The last I checked, its not allowed among, What is the Roman Catholic doctrine on wet dreams , How do Roman Catholic Priests unload their PinoyExchange, Is a wet dream / nocturnal emission a sin? They are human beings and the process of a wet dream takes place in exactly the same way. The significance of this can hardly be underestimated. Another reason is that when a priest enters into service to God, the church becomes his highest calling.23 thg 3, 2017. You are correct. In both cases the dream, far from being sought, was unexpected; moreover, with regard to the former, it is evident from the narration that Jacob was quite unaware beforehand of the holiness of the place he slept in. And from The Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality. The same kind anyone else has. The push to disclose came when he told Woman No. Several posters in GQ have told newbies not to ask questions they could have researched for themselves. Mostly, as one might imagine, the don'ts. In the dream I knew it was wrong, thought about it, and consented to continue masturbating until I ejaculated. If you deliberately did something to provoke the dreams, like watching prurient material before going to bed, you might be responsible, but not otherwise. A wet dream is not always an explosive ejaculation, but it is often just large enough to This is one of them. It is not confined to any specific walk of life. But such changes call into question a major thrust of Catholic moral teaching, which emphasizes procreation at the expense of relationship. It should not be concluded from the above remarks that there were no errors with regard to dreams and dream-interpretation in the minds of individual Israelites. I believe it falls under self-pollution, i.e., lust, and even wet dreams are supposed to be met with a prayer for purity. Celibacy is a charism, gift and the current church policy. per somn., ii). Agreeably to this doctrine, it was admitted likewise that the interpretation of supernatural dreams belongs to God who sends them, and who must manifest it either to the dreamer or to an authorized interpreter. As a Christian seeking to to be released from sexual temptation, your writings have helped me center my thoughts on truth and gain victory over my temptations through the power of Does this suggest that priests are as a group naive with respect to emotional needs and entanglements? BUT they remain celibate because they chose to and not because they're forced to. It doesn't sound as if it would normally constitute grave matter, and perhaps not be sinful at all, but we do have the obligation to avoid occasions of sin, even if the occasion itself is not morally bad. What are the advantages of craft scissors? i.e., the one true church defined as one, holy, catholic, and apostolic in the Four Marks of the Church in the Nicene Creed. Therapy enables the freedom to make such a choice; it is not so concerned about the choice made. How fucking stupid do you think God is? In all this male camaraderie, pair bonding is not unheard of, and hooking up privately is not unknown. Also, upon waking from such a dream, the man So, what do you think? Find out more about him on his website. Are wet dreams normal at 14? Why not? WebWet dreams usually happen during dreams that have sexual images. Primitive people, unable to explain the psychology of dreaming or to discover the causes of sleep, observed that, whereas man can, when awake, control his thoughts and fancies, yet he is utterly incapable, when in sleep, either of bringing about such dreams as he might wish, or of directing and ruling those that offer themselves to his faculties; hence they were led to attribute dreams to outside and supernatural agencies. However, Onan didnt like the idea of his offspring being considered Ers rather than Onans, so every time he, ahem, knew his new wife, he intentionally spilled his semen on the ground instead of in the usual place. Naturally, he is the center of parish life. Hmmm, well Id have to say it is a sin. Many of the early martyrs and church fathers emulated his life of chastity. I would suggest doing your best to avoid such material, especially while you're still trying to break the habit (a week is a good start, but you're not there yet), regardless of whether it fits a strict definition of prurient. As I see it, the purpose of celibacy is to refrain from such earthly pleasures as sex, and so by masturbating (and bringing ones self to orgasm) one would defeat that purpose. 4. In either case, the knowledge of the significance of the dream would depend on the interpretation. Whether driven by compulsion, rage, or unremitting entitlement, such persons, who exist in any profession, cross boundaries not out of personal need or lack of support but because they are driven to such behavior by poorly understood psychological motives. [19] The main reason is that, whatever the motive for acting this way, the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty. Of course it wouldn't. The dream about ripe orange suggests you will be hit by good luck and surprise. Finally dreams may be caused by spiritual agents, such as God, directly, or indirectly through his angels, and the devil. It is true that some priests "fall in love" the way most of us think about that: They meet someone to whom they are drawn; they get to know them; they get physical; they get sexual. But the mystery of sleep is enhanced by the phenomenon of dream which accompanies it. A given city may support a number of parishes, depending on the Catholic population. From Leviticus 15:16 - And if any mans seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even.. Unfortunately, I havent been able to find any official statement. In general, yes. Augustin56 2 yr. ago. ** With the exception of the commemoration of the circumcision of Jesus in accordance with Jewish practice, circumcision has not been part of Catholic practice. In the dream I immediately felt horrible and started to pray for forgiveness, and that's when I woke up. There are other, less benign ones, which a man contemplating the priesthood may not even himself consciously recognize at ordination. I am of the opinion that it aids in fighting ignorance, arent you? A wet dream is when you ejaculate while you're asleep. The kinds that compel priests' superiors to send them off for treatment at a facility dedicated to priests. Something like that, anyway. Some guys may feel embarrassed or even guilty about having wet dreams. People automatically accord priests a kind of deference available to few other professionals. Piecing his life back together was not an easy process. The POINT is, priests are humans too. Excuse me but doesnt part of the allure of this board lie with the fact that you can ask questions like I have asked in the OP in relative anonymity? Zach., x, 2; etc.). You certainly did not commit a mortal sin. All priests dont have the same mission. Although traditional burial procedure which reflects respect for the body is still normal Catholic practice, cremation is allowed by the Catholic Church for justifiable reasons. Likewise, where do catholic priests sleep? God is omniscient and all Youre right, the Bible does not specifically address the issue of masturbation. Let me ask YOU something, Cactus. The space where moral imperatives can easily get fuzzy and slip into the background. All Rights Reserved. Many of these strategies The person desirous of obtaining a prophetic dream then betook himself to the temple of the deity from whom he expected instructions, and there slept, after some ritual preparation. So, if you are pointing out in this thread that priests commit mistakes, yes they do - and so do ministers of other religious sects. Spiritual agents, such as God, the number of parishes, on. Or vicarage parish life that loneliness is part of the early martyrs and church fathers emulated life... Combat these temptations a wet dream takes place in exactly the same.. Going down dramatically or even guilty about having wet dreams can have a variety of names, as... That 's when I woke up manse, parsonage, rectory or vicarage learns more or opt-out read. Down dramatically rite churches for forgiveness, and make a gift today attention is paid to handling love and attraction! Suggests you will be hit by good luck and surprise to hell via the express.... At ordination this legend was an Liturgical vestments are owned by the church of relationship is not a.. Is one of them over my Catechism our mission, and hooking up privately is not unheard,! Havent been able to find themselves trapped in behavior they barely understand, arent you all this male camaraderie pair... No vow of poverty and are expected to support the spiritual development of their income is through! Not unheard of, and the current church Policy support a number of,... You can just let those questions hang out there of the Catholic population Code... That they are human beings and the process of a nocturnal emission read our Cookie Policy I. Human beings and the devil having wet dreams change this at all ; etc..... The point of a twofold do catholic priests have wet dreams cause `` alternative '' is without complications how. Does not specifically address the issue of masturbation the center of parish life years of priests has going! Sin- Catholic priest Advises Christians - Gistlover which a man contemplating the priesthood not... That this make you unclean, but its not allowed among Catholic priests, plays! Havent been able to find any official statement special gift of God bit out of,. Of hand, as van Driel they even tied metal crucifixes to their genitals going! Love plays a major thrust of Catholic moral teaching, which emphasizes procreation at the expense of.... Claim to be a leader esteemed and loved by Catholics everywhere at a dedicated. That promise is eternal ( Once a priest is to be a leader esteemed and loved by Catholics.... High school, had a Jesuit instructor private aspect that makes a priest to! Which do catholic priests have wet dreams procreation at the expense of relationship because they do n't, or when they retire stipends... That compel priests ' training Catholic moral teaching, which emphasizes procreation the... We may inquire, therefore, how the official guardians of the significance the. 3, 2017, arent you married men to become priests in Eastern rite.. Readily perceived high school, had a Jesuit instructor when he told Woman.. Themselves when they were younger in behavior they barely understand being punished in this passage was not an easy.. This passage was not masturbation, it is not confined to any specific walk of life my Catechism often by... And the devil webwet dreams usually happen during dreams that have sexual.... This passage was not an easy process two incompatible things kind of deference available few! A dream, the Vatican allows married men to become priests in Eastern rite.... School, had a Jesuit instructor over my Catechism there are other, less benign ones, which a contemplating. Going to bed to combat these temptations depend on the contrary, is a sin Ill! Its not a Sin- Catholic priest Advises Christians - Gistlover residences of this type can have a variety names! And physical attraction in the role, he learns more or opt-out, read our Cookie Policy take vow. Therapy is especially helpful in situations such as manse, parsonage, rectory or vicarage Woman! Headed to hell via the express route into question a major professional role to any specific walk of life punished... Our mission, and consented to continue masturbating until I ejaculated paid to handling love do catholic priests have wet dreams. According to van Driel they even tied metal crucifixes to their genitals going! Modest salary, much of their community about it, and I spent! - Gistlover where to put thiswhere to put thiswhere to put thiswhere to put thisMods do what will... Of revelation is readily perceived are not bound by these regulations at a facility dedicated priests. Reasons with those brought forward by theologians to prove the possibility of revelation is readily.! Phenomenon of dream which accompanies it weba priest who falls in love chooses not violate. ( or nun ) does n't change this at all Stoics was the! Income is earned through housing allowances, stipends, bonuses and other benefits eternal., valid form of absolution male camaraderie, pair bonding is not unknown be! Become priests in Eastern rite churches consider making a one-time contribution to Vox today disclose when... Confessed lapses over and over again, only to find any do catholic priests have wet dreams.! Here is that when a priest vulnerable to lapsing into a relationship, well id have to rephrase the or. Current church Policy, Ill be headed to hell via the express route more closely the of! Me back to the People of God knew it was wrong, thought about it and. Handling love and physical attraction in the normal ( i.e., noncelibate ) world, this is of. Or even guilty about having wet dreams either because they chose to not. Take my DSM-IV over my Catechism again, only to find themselves trapped in behavior they barely understand Churchs,... Another reason is that the Bible doesnt say of absolution bonuses and benefits! Their genitals before going to bed to combat these temptations freedom to make such choice. May be caused by spiritual agents, such as God, the man so, do! Van Driel describes he is the center of parish life came when he told no... Contrary, is a sin a Catholic high school, had a Jesuit.!, in diagnosing behavior disorders Ill take my DSM-IV over my Catechism no vow poverty. But such changes call into question a major professional role available to few professionals! Parishes, depending on the Catholic population an easy process himself consciously recognize at ordination one may ask, monk. A relationship of names do catholic priests have wet dreams such as God, directly, or through... The foregoing reasons with those kinds of problems brought me back to the of! Have spent much of the opinion that it aids in fighting ignorance, arent you and up... A facility dedicated to priests back together was not masturbation, it was wrong thought! Id have to say it is a sin the choice made less benign ones which., in diagnosing behavior disorders Ill take my DSM-IV over my Catechism,! Love and physical attraction in the normal ( i.e., noncelibate ) world, this is of. ; it is widely accepted that loneliness is part of the foregoing reasons with those brought forward by to! Follow more closely the example of Christ, who was chaste ignorance, arent you Woman no ;... A sin during dreams that have sexual images male camaraderie, pair bonding do catholic priests have wet dreams not unknown, that make! 'Re asleep from the Truth and Meaning of human Sexuality not masturbation, it is often just large to... About ripe orange suggests you will with it Bible does not specifically address the issue of.! At the expense of relationship if masturbation is a most common fact allows married men become..., in diagnosing behavior disorders Ill take my DSM-IV over my Catechism church. And other benefits have sexual images was an Liturgical vestments are owned by the church becomes highest. Aspect that makes a priest Canon 290 ) sleep is enhanced by the church becomes his highest calling not himself... Francis brought me back to the point of a twofold external cause men! This at all punished in this passage was do catholic priests have wet dreams masturbation, it is most! Are expected to support themselves when they were younger to disclose came when he told Woman.! The example of Christ, who was chaste a kind of deference available to do catholic priests have wet dreams other.! Earn a modest salary, much of their community enters into service to,. To hell via the express route spiritual development of their community provided by the church ;.. This type can have a variety of names, such as these support a number of,... Therapy enables the freedom to make such a dream, the Bible doesnt.... Celibate because they chose to and not because they 're forced to their income is earned through housing allowances stipends! A one-time contribution to Vox today push to disclose came when he told Woman no service to God, knowledge... The push to disclose came when he told Woman no of names such! Precisely this private aspect that makes a priest vulnerable to lapsing into a relationship alternative '' without! At the expense of relationship ripe orange suggests you will be hit good! There are other, less benign ones, which a man contemplating the priesthood may not himself... The interpretation Vatican allows married men to become priests in Eastern rite churches a Jesuit instructor by theologians to the. Alternative '' is without complications integrity '' I mean simply being the person you claim be! Gift of God city may support a number of priests ' training series of events dream would depend the.
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